Pinnacle Jacket Feedback

October 21, 2009 Rohan Outdoor Clothing 10 comments

Observations on the Rohan Pinnacle Jacket.

I’ve been looking with interest at the new Pinnacle jacket. Looks good, but there’s a few things I’d want changing before I shelled out that amount of money.

The tag-line about nothing you don’t need is one I like, but I really wonder who really needs a link-up zip for under-layers when they’re doing serious mountaineering? If I link in an insulation jacket to a shell I get a few extra things: more time faffing with zips (especially if I want to change layering), more weight, more bulk, more cost, more heat lost through the gap at the front in the insulator and more prospect of my shell dragging up my under-layers underneath me. What I can’t see is anything particularly positive! I think there’s a good reason why most brands leave them out of their serious mountain jackets, and I’d like to have seen the Pinnacle follow the others on that point.

I think it’s truly a progressive step to use a proper waterproof zip onthe main zip, as we all know what “water resistant” really means. But I’d like to know why it’s worth putting one on the main zip while leaving two long and potentially leaking vents with the lower specification zips to the sides. Pit zips are bad for all the reasons Tim gives in the video presentation, but one thing about pit zips is they are sheltered much better from the rain than the sort of core vents on the Pinnacle, so while a resistant zip would be fine in a pit, if you’re bringing the vent into a more exposed location then shouldn’t it have more protection from the elements too?

Fleece around the ears etc.? Nice touch, but if I’m going mountaineering I’ll have a hat on (especially as a slap-head!), so I’m carrying extra weight and bulk for no reason, and paying more too. That’s the sort of thing that’s easy to add in under-layers (a Buff or two) but if you build it into the coat you’re stuck with it the whole time, so I’m not keen (at least for something I’ll be pushing to limits).

Next niggle is the arm pocket. I’ve never found a use for these that I didn’t contrive just because it’s there. Putting anything in them of substance means you can’t roll the sleeves up sensibly, you can only ever get at them with one hand and I’ve never found them easier to get at even with the “right” hand as easy as accessing a chest pocket. And again we add bulk, weight and cost.

880 grammes these days is pretty heavy. You can get genuinely tough mountain jackets with more minimal features at quite a bit lower these days, and I’d happily lose the arm pocket, extra zip and hood-chrome to get the weight down. I also find that there are always times when a shell belongs in my pack, and lower weight will usually correlate with smaller pack size too.

So v1.0 won’t find a buyer here, but a more stripped-down version might.

Especially if I can get a red one…

P.J. Clinch.

A Reply from Tim Jasper Rohan Design Director

Many thanks for such a thoughtful review. Let’s look at your points in turn.

1. Link zip. We thought long and hard about this and we consulted in the outdoor industry too. The general consensus is that the positives are there. If you’d tried a Pinnacle with an Inner Flame zipped in you might even be a convert too! It’s great when you’re wearing the coat in truly cold conditions, great for evenings around camp, it makes it the perfect ski jacket too. Convertees like it because once the garments are linked together there is actually less faffing: you have one, integrated, warm and waterproof coat. I realise this may not be to all tastes though. The weight issue is a bigger one and I’ll cover that lower down, but the weight penalty of this zip is a few grams – less than a bit of mud on your boot…
2. Venting and waterproof zips – or otherwise. The water-resistant zips on the side vents are protected by stiffened storm flaps. This keeps even wind driven water out. And although the waterproof zips on the front and hand pockets are much better, the water resistant ones we spec are pretty good anyway. We’ve had no leakage on any wear tests so far.
3. Point taken about the fleece ear warmers. In truth you’re not paying a significant sum for these. The weight issue is fair but again is minimal. I was wearing my Pinnacle for a low level walk yesterday and it didn’t stop raining for several hours. I wasn’t wearing a hat – it would have been too hot – so was quite happy to have the comfort the fleece provided. When we designed the Pinnacle we had in mind also this kind of general wear, because if you have shelled out for such an expensive jacket chances are you’ll be wearing it for more modest uses too.
4. Arm pocket. I love this arm pocket! It’s specifically for stowing a compass in easily when doing tight navigation in bad conditions. I usually stuff the compass up my sleeve (rather than having it flying around on its lanyard) so this to me is a marked improvement – but then that’s a personal preference. Good place for a ski pass and maybe small items like lipsalve?? Again, if it’s all about shaving off the grams then we’d leave it out.
5. Weight. All your points are very reasonable when considering the weight issue. The main reason the jacket is this weight though isn’t really the small details but the specified weight of the main fabric. We are acutely conscious of weight saving – where appropriate – but the thing with the Pinnacle is this: it is clearly not designed as a stripped back, super light garment, it is designed as a rugged and reliable jacket for serious, continual use. We developed our fabric at this weight in order to guarantee a good long life, even when used for professional use. I’ve plenty of lighter weight jackets both personally and out on test that haven’t really lasted that long. It’s all horses for courses really. If you want lighter coats then clearly there are plenty out there. What the Pinnacle is is a good, very high spec, workhorse for mountain use. Great as a wear-all-day jacket, but not the lightest. Anyway, thanks again. This is a great review and your points are very fair.
You might be interested to hear that we are working on some very light indeed mountain gear, but again with great durability. These should launch in the late spring. Dammit, not coming in red though!

All the best, Tim Jasper.

Rohan Design Director

Rohan Pinnacle Jacket – The Movie

Rohan Pinnacle Review

10 Comments

Tim Jasper says:

04/02/2010 at 21:18

Dear Neil, thanks for the comments. Appreciate the careful consideration you’ve put into the feedback. Points taken particularly about the lower leg. Bytheway, the Bibs were tested with crampons and noone fell over… but that all depends on the individual eh?. Regarding a map I have also managed to stuff the dreaded OS map into the handpockets. Anyway, many thanks again and really glad you’re pleased with the gear. Best regards, Tim Jasper
Neil Gray says:

31/01/2010 at 12:22

I have both the Pinnacle jacket and salopettes. My only real niggle with the jacket is the lack of a pocket big enough to take a map. I like the vents in the front, rather than under the arms. Not only to they work as vents but I can use them to access the pockets in my Ursa fleece jacket. The saloppettes I have the odd issue with. As they are a touch long in the leg for me the eyelets for the integral gaiters pull under the foot when I tighten the underfoot cord on the gaiter. If I am in a situation where I will need to put on my salopettes I am invariably wearing gaiters anyway so I could do without this feature.I know they zip off but they seem unnecessary. I would far rather replace it with some way of tightening the ankle cuffs. They are very baggy ( they will easily fit over a ski boot) and I fear they will catch when I am wearing crampons.I would like some method of taking in all the excess fabric.
I hope these points are taken as constructive as I am really glad Rohan are once again producing top class mountain waterproofs.

Cheers.

Neil.
stu stanley says:

25/01/2010 at 14:57

I respectfully disagree with Mr? Clinch in many areas of his evaluation. I have submitted a report about this jacket and continue to be impressed with it. It is my first item of rohan clothing. Pit zips…. its a must to keep up with the Jones’. I’ve never used them as I’d prefer to take a layer off. Weight… it’s a compromise. I’ve used Mountain Equipment and Berghaus expensive lightweights and trust me, they dont work after their initial beading week! Bulk is sometimes a good thing as reduced weight is always a compromise. As for the fleecey bits… love it. I get so fed up with chaffs around the neck from continual use that I actually think it is important. Sorry P.J but your missing out!
Stu
Huw Griffiths says:

14/11/2009 at 17:11

My fiancee bought the Pinnacle Jacket and loves it – in terms of its look, quality and functionality.

I agree with her – its an amazing new fabric the Barricade and the jacket is a quality item. The waterproof zips and soft touch panels on the neck, ears and chin are great.

I’d like one to replace my aging and failing Berghaus but the men’s colours are an issue for me on this jacket and on some other products through the range. Rohan, if you could produce a darker colour for us conservative but discerning men I am sure you’d get increased sales of the Pinnacle.

I’m waiting for a black or dark blue or dark grey jacket to come out and then I’ll be £300 lighter!
Tim Jasper says:

12/11/2009 at 11:49

Dear George

Thanks for the comments. And a healthy level of scepticism in there by the sounds of it!

I’m the guy who briefed the design for both the original Pinnacle and the new one… so let me respond to some of your comments:

I wonder if some of your comments come from your preferences as a sailor? This new Pinnacle is specifically a hillwalking and trekking jacket, so more specialised than the original Pinnacle. Anyway:

Riri AQUAzips don’t need flaps over them! – this is a new technology. But proven: we have extensively weartested these zips and know they work exceptionally well. Surprising I know.

Wind also will not penetrate the front because the zip is effectively a seal – and anyway there’s an extra protective flap behind as well.

Sleeve pocket is dead useful, we think – but clearly that’s a personal choice! The contents are protected from rain by water resistant zip and flap.

I also take issue with the idea that ventilator zips are a gimmick! I swear by them myself. No matter how breathable the fabric there comes a time when you need to spill out some heat or get some cold air in. Yes you can open the main zip but the vent zips work better on the hill. They don’t leak due to the water-resistant zips and the stiffened flaps over.

Glad you like the link zips. Plenty of other people don’t… Glad you’re unaffected by the weight issue. Colours – ok, noted – and again a very personal issue. Original Pinnacle did indeed come in yellow and red (and blue and green).

Price. Fair enough. We think it’s the right price for the level of components, performance, quality and guarantee that makes up our jacket.

Anyway, happy to take issue with you on a couple of these points! Thanks very much again for the comments. Best regards, Tim Jasper
Arthur taylor says:

11/11/2009 at 21:12

I agree with Pete about link zips. There are plenty of times when you want to take off an outer jacket and leave the inner one on for warmth. Inevitably there is a cold spot at the front. It is much easier – and often more comfortable to have separate layers.
I like the idea of fleece ear flaps if they are the same material as the pockets of my Nightfall Vest!
Arm pockets leave me unimpressed on lightweight material – always needing two hands to operate and hopeless in an emergency.
PS
Why cannot men have the nightshade version of the Microgrid stowaway top?
George P says:

11/11/2009 at 17:38

New Pinnacle Jacket not a patch on the original (c.1999?).
Not enough pockets, hood too small for a thick hat, no map pocket. Small sleeve pocket useless – anything in it is also vulnerable to damage and water. No flap over main zip – I don’t believe a zip can ever be made waterproof, but it does need to be cold wind proof! Ventilator zips just a gimmick – they will leak. Inner garment zips a good idea for the skier, but the inner adds a lot to the price. Colours not right – red and yellow please. Weight not a critical issue for me – I am a sailor. Finally, too expensive.
Tim Jasper says:

23/10/2009 at 14:17

Dear Pete, Of course you’re right about every gram adding up. What we have created here are a real workhorse jacket and bibs that will take hard knocks and are designed to last a good, long time. Where the specialist market is largely – and what people like your good self are looking for – is more stripped back, pure garments. I think you’re going to like the look of several garments we are planning for launch next Summer. I can’t say any more yet infortunately… if only so I’m not tempting fate by talking about something that may not make it in time… Still, watch this space.
Regarding the different zips in use – I appreciate your points. What we are trying to do is to minimise the fuss and complexity on the key features that are likely to be used the most: the main zip and the hand pockets. The solution to this is AQUAzips, which we really believe in. The harsh truth is that they are a very expensive component, so we have to be judicious about how much we use them. For secondary features like vent zips the still excellent YKK water-resistant zips with flaps seem more than adequate for the job. Plenty of hardcore brands use them for main zip protection, after all.
Funny isn’t it? – we’ve just had a review in Trail which criticises the lack of a storm flap on the main zip – which is missing the point rather.
Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback and interest. Best wishes, Tim Jasper
Outdoorman says:

21/10/2009 at 19:03

I have been following this conversation on various internet services. I am very impressed that Rohan have taken such an open and honest approach to their customer views. Keep it going.
Pete Clinch says:

21/10/2009 at 13:12

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Tim, it’s always good to know folk listen.

My thinking on weight saving by feature reduction is that while one item on its own is only a few grammes, a few items is a few times a few grammes… My current mountain waterproof is a tweaked version of one of Paramo’s, and despite being made in exactly the same fabrics as Paramo use it’s over 100g lighter than their own equivalent product, and that’s actually a useful sort of saving.

With the zips, I’m not really criticising storm flaps over resistant zips, I’m simply wondering why you use two different solutions on the one jacket? If a waterproof zip is better and you’re not building down to a price, why not use waterproof zips on the vents… or if resistant zips and a flap is fine, why the expense of the waterproof main. I’d still be interested to know why both systems rather than one system for vents and main zip together.

Maybe it’s because I’m an orienteer that I can’t agree with your compass pocket… If I’m doing tight navigation I want the compass in my hand and on the map, not in a pocket!

regards, Pete.